Healing Through Grief and Loss

Transcript

Ellie Pike:
The very first time Kaylee Kron stepped into a therapist's office, it did not go well.

Kaylee Kron:
It was truly one of the most disappointing and damaging times of my life.

Ellie Pike:
The reason? Her therapist simply didn't know how to handle grief.

Kaylee Kron:
So when I went to see this therapist, I really made an intention to be vulnerable and I opened up all of the boxes that I had closed for that year or so. She kind of heard my story and then she laughed at me.

Ellie Pike:
You heard that right, laughed.

Kaylee Kron:
Because I said, I just want this hurt to go away. I feel done feeling this bad. She laughed and she said, "Oh, you millennials, you just want everything to happen so fast. It's just not going to work that way." And I didn't talk about my loss for another three years.

Ellie Pike:
Fortunately, Kaylee's first experience with mental healthcare didn't turn her away from digging deeper. In fact, she dug much deeper and now has over 10 years experience as a licensed master social worker and certified grief counselor. What began as counseling the bereaved at Hospice of North Idaho has grown to include training others on grief, public speaking, and companioning individuals and families through their grief journeys. She's even published a children's book on grief featuring her beloved pug Charlie Sue. We invited her on the show to welcome us into the fascinating and transformative world of grief. You are listening to Mental Note Podcast. I'm Ellie Pike.

Kaylee Kron:
I need to go get a blanket for my pug and I will be right back.

Ellie Pike:
Well, Kaylee, we're so happy to have you on the show and to have your expertise and grief is a fascinating concept because sometimes people love to talk about it. Sometimes people do not love to talk about it, but to hear that this is work that you really enjoy doing is really fascinating to me. So I'm just curious, what got you interested in working with others who are dealing with grief?

Kaylee Kron:
It's really interesting because I think the main catalyst for my journey in doing grief work is my personal losses. And I truly feel like I didn't understand how important grief work was until I lost somebody and failed to get the support that I really needed. And so really where it started for me was my grandfather, who was like a dad to me, died when I was just finishing up college. And so I really wanted to get into working with the elderly. I knew I wanted to kind of focus my energy on the end of life versus the beginning, the middle. As a social worker, you kind of have to figure out who you want to talk to all the time. And so I went to get my master's degree in social work and in the middle of my master's program, my boyfriend died in a car accident. We were both 23 years old and we had been together for about six years all through college. And then we moved in together after college and planned our life together. And when he died, my whole world just fell apart. I really caved within myself and I didn't reach out for very much help. It was a time where it really changed the way I understood the depth of pain a person could feel.

Ellie Pike:
After a year and a half of keeping this corrosive pain inside, Kaylee grew concerned that her mental health was beginning to crumble and that's how she wound up visiting the callous therapist you heard about at the top of the show, an encounter that only locked Kaylee's grief away for three more years.

Kaylee Kron:
It was incredibly lonely. I got into a relationship with somebody that was really loud and I lost a lot of relationships because of it, because he was so deeply difficult to be around, but I didn't want to talk. So it served me really well. And then when he left, thankfully, I really spent time kind of paying more attention to my grief and thinking about the impact that it had on me, spending more time on my own. I got a therapy dog, her name is Charlie. She is the base of my book, and she really saved my life and she's so intuitive. So if you ever need someone to just know when you're sad, get a pug. And then I got a job as a grief counselor at Hospice of North Idaho. And I didn't know at the time that I got that job how much pain I was in. I think when you live with that kind of pain that you shove down, you almost think that that's the way you're supposed to feel.

I didn't realize it until I got the opportunity to go to Fort Collins, Colorado to study with Dr. Alan Wolfel, who was the founder of the Companioning model. In this course that we were all taking, he really believes that grief workers do the work because we have personal loss experiences and he's right. And so we had to go around throughout this week to share our stories with the whole room. And I just kind of sat there thinking if I'm just really quiet and I don't make eye contact, maybe I'll never be called on. And it was the second to last day, I was the last person to share and Dr. Wolfel made eye contact with me and he said, "You have not shared yet." And I think he could tell that I was scared. I was obviously shaking and I was really uncomfortable. And I said, "My boyfriend died in a car accident in 2013." And it was almost like he switched from being a teacher to being a companion in that moment.

He got down to my level, he asked me, "What was your boyfriend's name?" And I told him his name was Shane. And he asked me some very pointed questions about how I found out, which unfortunately I found out on Facebook that my boyfriend died, which was a really confusing and traumatizing experience. And kind of sharing how hard that was, and I was holding back tears and really quaky voice and he just validated. He made me feel seen and understood with just his posture, with his presence, with the questions that he asked, the way he didn't cower at the things that I had said or act horrified. He just was there with me and it made me feel so seen. I remember thinking that day with Dr. Wolfel, I want to spend my life making people feel the way he just made me feel.

Ellie Pike:
So when you were describing your experience in conversation, I felt this centering coming down onto your level and asking in some ways provoking questions. But I know for me, in my own experience of grief, those are important questions. Those are important ways to process. It doesn't mean that I'm going to be hurt more if you ask me questions about how I found out or the person I lost. If anything, it's just part of my story and it's a way that I can move through it. So I'm curious about your experience professionally and personally. What's the best way to navigate to navigate conversations? So for example, will you make someone's grief worse if you ask them details about it? Or if someone goes to answer questions about their grief, how can they ensure that it's not going to make them spiral? So what are some of your key takeaways in that area?

Kaylee Kron:
I think my primary takeaway is that the only way you can make somebody in grief feel worse is if you invalidate their grief or you ignore it completely. Some ways that we invalidate people's grief is through using phrases called platitudes, which are, they're in a better place, at least, literally anything, if you start the sentence with at least stop immediately and recalibrate, it's a way to kind of say, I see that you're hurting and I'm going to try to make you not hurt. And that is kind of glazing over what a griever actually needs by making yourself feel better, not the person grieving.

So using a platitude is what you want to stay away from. And then being too worried about how to support somebody in griefs and eventually just not supporting them at all is equally poor. It is an equally poor way to care for somebody who is very, very isolated and very, very lonely. Essentially as somebody in grief, you are the most alone person in the whole world, simply because our culture does not understand how to support people in grief. Our family and friends kind of lean away and they almost act like grief is contagious and death is contagious. And so if we just kind of don't look at the problem, it will resolve itself and surely someone will reach out to that griever. And so those are the two things we really want to stay away from.

And the number one way that we support people in grief is through compassionate curiosity. So we ask questions about what happened to a person so that we can understand a little but more so that they can talk about it. I will ask questions to grievers that I know the answer to. When I worked at Hospice of North Idaho, I got a face sheet. I knew how the person died. I knew how long they were ill. I knew just what happened exactly at the time of death. That doesn't mean I didn't ask those questions because it's a part of that person's story. And so when I come to any griever and just ask, first and foremost, what is your loved one's name? That is a powerful thing because to say that person's name out loud is something we don't do very often. When somebody dies, we say, oh, I'm sorry for your loss. How did he die? Do you miss him? Those kind of things. We really take away the name. So saying the name of a person we like to think brings their energy into the room and his name was Shane, and when you say his name, you feel more powerfully connected to the person who has died. And then moving into how did he die? How did you find out that he died? How did you feel when you found out that Shane died? When you read a Facebook post? Those things are a unique thumbprint to a person's lived experience in grief. And by telling the story, it helps the griever do one of these essential tasks, which is process the pain and accept the reality. So really in telling your story as the griever, you're doing a couple of things that are essential for your grieving process.

Ellie Pike:
Thank you so much for sharing some of those tips. And I think the key takeaway for me is don't avoid the topic of grief. And platitudes are a way that we can all try to avoid, right? Because it makes us feel uncomfortable and it might be uncomfortable for the griever, but that's what grief is. It's really uncomfortable. So I'm curious when your story evolved and once you were married and you realized you had not really gone through the whole grieving process, and what did that look like once you did decide you were ready to look at your experience?

Kaylee Kron:
It kind of happened in moments. It wasn't like I came home from my training and the floodgates reopened because in a lot of ways, my heart, my relationship heart had healed so much just from being deeply loved by somebody else. That part was kind of good to go, but there are times in my marriage and in my life where the grief of my boyfriend who died kind of rises to the surface of more important than what's going on in the here and now.

And it's usually during his birthday and the anniversary of his death, which actually happens to be in two days from now. And you can feel it because our body remembers kind of trauma that it's experienced. And so I can feel myself getting sadder as we get closer to the day Shane died. And so I tell my husband like, "Hey, it's coming up. Just know that I'm going to be a little extra tender. Just know that I'm going to be a little sad, a little low. Here are some things you can do to support me. And equally, here's some time that I need to spend by myself really processing the loss that I've experienced."

And I cannot commend my husband enough for allowing me the space to grieve somebody that I loved very much because that is such a unique experience. And I think any person who has lost a spouse, a life partner, or somebody that you anticipated having in your life forever, can relate to that experience when getting into a new relationship, that they are unique and separate, and it's often really hard for the person that you bring into that dynamic.

Ellie Pike:
Well, I really commend you for allowing yourself to be in that process even 10 years later, and to normalize that for yourself and for your husband, and for you to understand... That it's pretty tremendous that your husband can understand that you need time to still process this old love of yours and the loss that you experienced. So as we talk about grief, maybe it would be helpful to pause and even define what grief is, and I'm curious if you could do that for us.

Kaylee Kron:
Yeah, absolutely. So when I moved into more of a grief educator and public speaker, I was finding that the intro to my presentations of the actual definition of grief just really fell short. And so I decided to pull a Brene Brown and create my own definition of grief, and I call attention to it. I'm very honest. This is a completely made up definition, but it seems to work for me in the work that I do, and it validates people. But I define grief as the natural normal response to something being taken from you without your permission.

Ellie Pike:
It's interesting you say that because the first thing that comes to my mind is that even with your permission, even if I were to let go of someone or something, I might still grieve. But yeah, I like that you say this really natural and normal response. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Kaylee Kron:
I always say that grief, feeling grief about something or someone being taken away from you is the most natural response because it hurts. We are storytellers, human beings tell stories about what our life is going to look like forever and ever. You get married, you have children, you get this job you've been planning to have, and at any point throughout that timeline, something about your story changes, it's pulled out and we have to figure out how to recalibrate the story and make the story make sense to us again. And it hurts. And even if, let's say, the loss is a divorce and you choose to divorce your spouse, you still lost the story. So it's less about who has been taken and more about the role that they played in your life and what you believed your life to look like for the long term. And the loss of that story is incredibly painful and not always a choice because when relationships break down, certainly we're not choosing every single moment that it breaks down.

Ellie Pike:
I like that you talk about it as a loss of story. Another word that comes to my mind is expectation, like a loss of what you expected your story to look like, and maybe that person or that relationship is not gone, but maybe total shift in that relationship or even a slight shift. I know that I've had to grieve some of those experiences because it does, it changes that story. And I know for me, I like to try to put something on a timeline. Grief may only last this long and it might look like this, and I like to know what to expect. And I know grief isn't quite like that, but there is the perception that there are stages of grief. And what are your thoughts about these and maybe what are they if that's helpful?

Kaylee Kron:
I have so many thoughts. I think grief for somebody who needs timelines and what to expect when you're grieving, it's going to be a rough ride because there's so much that we cannot anticipate because everyone's grief journey is unique. Every person, every loss, every single time, it's going to take something different. And so what I always talk about with the five stages of grief is that they have given us a stepping off point to talking about grief. And unfortunately, it's become kind of this corner that we paint ourselves in, because again, as human beings, we love steps. Give me a step by step of how to make this hurt less, and that's really not what the stages of grief were created for.

So Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who created the five stages of grief, created it for the dying, not the bereaved. So when she companion individuals on their death beds, she noted these kind of moments in time where things were being processed. We had denial, anger, bargaining, guilt, and acceptance. And because she labeled it the stages of grief, we pulled it over to the people left behind, and that was used. And those feelings can be very valid throughout the grief process, but certainly because they're so specific and because they're in order, people thought, okay, first I'm going to deny that this is happening, then I can check that off and never ever do that again. We'll move on to depression. Check that off. Then how about some bargaining?

And we think that things like this are linear when grief is a whole mess of processing and revisiting pieces of our grief process for the rest of our life. So as far as timeline, I really am sorry to say it's not six months. It's not a year. We grieve in different ways for the rest of our lives, the losses that we've suffered. And so what I thought was really great in learning more about grief and how to support someone through this process is that in response to the five stages, we had a man named William Warden create the four tasks of mourning, which are more buckets of experiences rather than a very linear specific feeling that you're going to have. So the tasks that he outlines are first accept the reality of the loss.

And so this is a really important step because when you lose somebody or something fundamentally has shifted in your life, you wake up in the morning and you forget that it happened because that's not a part of the story you've been telling. And it takes time for our brains to recalibrate our stories and we will forget. There are times 10 years later when I hear a joke, a raunchy joke that only Shane would think was funny, and I'll go to text him because that stage, that task is never complete.

It's just something that we touch every once in a while. And over time we touch it less and less. The second task is processing the pain. And this is the outward expression of our grief. It is mourning, it is crying, it's screaming, it is begging for them to come back. It is asking to go along with them. It is all of the parts of us that hurt the most coming out. When we don't allow the processing of the pain and we push that on the inside, like I did, it lives in there. It doesn't go away, it doesn't dissipate. And I often say that it gets thicker so that when you finally do let it come out, it hurts more. So processing the pain is so essential. When you're feeling sad, feel sad when you want to cry, let yourself cry, which probably makes everyone else very uncomfortable, but that's okay because maybe we need to be a little uncomfortable.

The third task is to adjust to the world without the deceased. So what this looks like is looking out into your life and thinking, is this something I can do without them? And in a very clear way to describe that is let's say you lost your partner, your spouse, and you were the one who cooked every night and they died. And you start to wonder, okay, well, that was something I did in life. Is that something I still like to do? Is that something that I enjoyed or is that something I did for the other person? And so you kind of try on these parts of your life that fit when that person was alive and with you, and you just wonder, does it still fit? So really looking out into the world and saying like, okay, what can this look like? What does this look like and how can I make it work moving forward? And the fourth task is to create an enduring connection with the person who is lost while embarking on your new life. So when I think about the things I do in my life and my journey to supporting people in grief, I bring Shane with me every single time I companion someone through grief. And this looks like just having that depth of compassion as a result of my loss so that I can relate to the depth of pain a bereaved is feeling in that moment. And not to say that my experience looks like theirs, but to at least say in my head, oh, I see you, I hear your pain, and I have been there, so let's walk together.

And so it's taking that person with you as you go forward because we don't put it down, we don't get over loss, we don't move on, we move through. And I like to say we integrate the loss into who we are moving forward, kind of if every experience in your life is a kaleidoscope that you look through and every individual experience is a little picture in there, grief and the loss of that person or the loss of that situation is in there, but it's not everything that you are and it's not everything that you're looking into. When the grief first happens, oh my gosh, that picture inside that kaleidoscope is huge. And over time it integrates into the rest of the picture.

Ellie Pike:
I really like the way you brought that picture into mind, and it feels like all of these stages can be really fluid. Is it like one at a time or is it like they kind of meld together, you flow in and out of each of them? What does that look like for someone?

Kaylee Kron:
I love imagery. And so another image I like to use is a CD changer in an old car before we could Bluetooth it. And we had multiple CDs inside the car. Where did they live? I'm not super sure. But when one popped to the top, that's the one that played. But all of the other CDs were still in there. And at any given time, they switch and it isn't which one are you doing right now? It's which one is floating to the surface for you? And paying attention to that experience of like, okay, I am feeling really, really sad. So obviously right now I'm processing the pain. What does that task require of me right now? It needs me to be sad, it needs me to think about it. It needs me to maybe retell my story, call a friend, reach out, write in a journal. What is my grief requiring today?

Ellie Pike:
I really appreciate talking about how it's all continually happening, just paying attention to which one is on top and which one is calling our attention the most is where we should bring our attention to. And so it seems like grief is work that is constantly happening, whether or not we're aware of it or not. Is that something that you would agree with?

Kaylee Kron:
Totally. I mean, you think about the idea of embarking on a new life while remaining connected to the person who has died. That's in the days that you are laughing and smiling and you smell a smell or you think about a memory and you're pulled back maybe to processing the pain for a minute, but then you're still enjoying your day. At all times, grief is present, but grief isn't everything. It's just something that needs to be honored as it comes.

Usually when someone comes in for grief support, whether they realize it or not, they're coming to be validated, they're coming to be seen, and they are coming to be understood. And that really comes from my training with Dr. Wolfel in Colorado with the Companioning model of grief and the Companioning model of grief really just says, I am not the expert of your grief. You are. So why don't you tell me what you're going through and let's walk together. And really it's instead of having kind of this power dynamic of the therapist and the client, the therapist having more knowledge, more understanding, and really guiding the process, grief counseling under the Companion model brings people side by side as human beings.

And the griever is educating the counselor, and the counselor is just reflecting back whatever the griever is needing in that moment. And so I think that's a really beautiful way to look at grief work because it shows us that every single person is capable of supporting another person in grief. And to be a grief counselor, I have made it such a life's mission to make my work unnecessary because I am a impermanent fixture in a person's life as a grief counselor, whereas their family and their natural support systems are going to be there forever. And if they're able to build that companioning relationship with a permanent person, then anytime that grief comes up, they've got that person to listen to them, whereas they'll have to make an appointment with me and who knows where in the world I am.

Ellie Pike:
Well, I love this Companioning model and just bringing in the concept that anyone can be that support person and it doesn't take a master's degree, and it doesn't take so much specialized training. Oftentimes, I know that grievers are going through an experience together and their experience might look really different. In using this Companioning model, is there any information that might be validating or helpful when grievers are supporting each other?

Kaylee Kron:
I love that you asked that because there is this concept in grief work that we pay attention to where when you are in grief, you have a high need to be understood and a very low capacity to understand. And so it is especially hard for two people in grief to be companions to each other in a way that isn't going to kind of infringe on the other person's experience. And so best case scenario, you each as grievers find somebody to lean on and lean on each other. So this really comes into play the most. I see it the most with a parent child relationship, and it is so important to really...

Okay, so start over. So in a parent child relationship, let's say a parent is bringing a child into the grief center where I work, and the parent says, okay, come talk to my kid, be their grief counselor. I'm like, okay. The child comes in and the child says, I'm sad, but I don't want my mom to see how sad I am because I don't want to make her sad. I'm like, okay. Then we switch and the parent comes in and the parent says, I don't want my child to see how sad I am because I want to be there for them. And if they see how sad I am, that will worry them. And so you have these two human beings who are literally built to support each other and be each other's natural support system, not letting each other be that. And so really what this looks like and how we address it is I have to tell the parent, it's your job to show your child what grief is supposed to look like. And unfortunately, that means showing your child what your grief looks like.

And that's a really uncomfortable place for parents because we want to shield our children from pain, and we are experiencing pain and it hurts. But to shield our child makes them think that we're supposed to be doing this alone. Okay, well, my mom's not showing grief, so that's probably how I'm supposed to act. And so to expect a child to share their grief with you when you are not willing to do the same is unreasonable. And it's basic modeling.

So we have two people sitting upright, and I always say, lean into each other. And that is so important because that's a natural support system. People in a family don't grieve in a vacuum. Usually we're grieving as a group. Our needs are different and unique, but that doesn't mean we can't be together in that sadness. A parent in grief can be intentional in the ways that they show their grief to their child. Mommy is feeling really sad right now. I am missing somebody very much right now. My heart hurts sometimes. Does your heart hurt sometimes? And so it's kind of modeling by saying, I'm sad. Are you sad? And allowing for that child to respond back as opposed to, you're great. How are you doing, little child? And then expecting that child to show you an authentic representation of their grief.

Ellie Pike:
Thank you, Kaylee. You have such an incredible way with words and really taking this complex topic and bringing it into a place of just normalizing it. It is okay for us to all feel, right? That's at the baseline of all of this, that it's we're humans. We're supposed to feel, and this is how we process grief. So for those who may be grieving or realize that maybe they haven't been aware of their grief and now they want to work on it, what are some resources that grievers can access?

Kaylee Kron:
What I have found so uplifting in the past three years is the attention being paid to grief. What is so lovely about that is we have so many online virtual free grief resources that people can access just as a way to get a little bit more information, education and best case scenario, a support system if they don't already have. One of my favorite online platforms is called whatsyourgrief.com? And they have hundreds and hundreds of articles and blogs about the grief journey from all different perspectives. They have death loss and non death loss. They have children's grief, they have ambiguous loss, they have anticipatory grief, they have just about any type of grief you're looking for, information and resources on that subject.

There's also a high likelihood that wherever you live, there is a nonprofit hospice organization that often offers at minimum resource counseling. So they will look around your area or they'll have that information available to you. So if you call and say, I'm grieving the loss of A, B, C, they'll know kind of where to go in your area to get some in-person resources. And at best, they have a hospice like mine where they offer free grief counseling and grief support groups to the community.

Ellie Pike:
That is so incredible. I'm so grateful to hear of these wonderful resources. So just to touch on this a little bit, since we do talk about therapy a lot on this podcast, what are your thoughts on grief being a diagnosis, which means that insurance can cover grief work with a therapist?

Kaylee Kron:
The new diagnosis of grief is really complicated. It brings more access to people who need support in their grief by allowing therapists to bill Medicaid and Medicare and insurance for this service. But it also, it makes grief a diagnosis. And what we know about diagnoses is that there are diagnostic criteria that are very specific that you have to hit in order to be qualified under that diagnosis.

And as I've said this whole time, grief is a unique experience for every single individual. And so even before this criteria came down and this diagnosis came down, I had people coming to me and saying, I was told grief was only supposed to last a year, and I was told that I'm supposed to cry, or I'm crying too much, or I'm talking about it too much, or I'm not talking about it enough. And grievers will constantly kind of compare and contrast the messaging from our culture about what grief is supposed to look like and deeply feel that they're doing it wrong. And now that this diagnostic criteria is out, it is giving a literal list of how to be diagnosed with grief in a way that can be supported through therapy. And so many people might fit it, and so many people might not. And that is no measure of whether or not they're grieving. It's just a measure of whether or not that grief gets covered. And so it can work to further invalidate a person's grief process if it doesn't look the way the diagnostic criteria says that it should.

Ellie Pike:
Well, Kaylee, I know there's a lot more that we could talk about regarding grief on this podcast, but if there's anything I'm taking away from today's episode is that it doesn't take an expert to sit and to listen and to validate someone's experience. So thank you so much for just bringing some of these truths to light and helping empower all of us to be a companion for someone else who's grieving.

Kaylee Kron:
Thanks so much for having me.

Ellie Pike:
Back at the top of the show, I explained this episode as an introduction to the world of grief, and I meant it. Worlds are big and complex. So if you're feeling overwhelmed by new information or ways of thinking, that's okay. Here are my main takeaways as well as options for further exploration. Grief is natural and universal. We cannot get through life without encountering it. Since it is just part of life, every single person is especially equipped to support one another in our grief. It's one of the many ways we can show love. So as we take care of one another, remember a few basics.

First, acknowledge grief rather than ignore it. Second, don't lean on platitudes or rigid criteria. Those will only restrict the mourning process. Instead, remember to use compassionate curiosity, listen to each other's stories, and as a result, process loss together. Finally, if you want to go deeper on this topic or you have a specific grief scenario you need help with, check out whatsyourgrief.com.

They have an abundance of resources for grievers, supporters of a griever, and professionals looking to learn more. Again, that's whatsyourgrief.com. You can also check out Kaylee and her work at her website, the-grief-coach.com, and on Instagram. Her handle is @the.grief.coach. Thank you for listening to Mental Note Podcast. Our show is brought to you by Eating Recovery Center and Path Light Mood and Anxiety Center. If you'd like to talk to a trained therapist to see if in-person or virtual treatment is right for you, please call them at 877-850-7199. If you'd like our show, sign up for our e-newsletter and learn more about the people we interview at mentalnotepodcast.com. We'd also love it if you left us a review on iTunes. It helps others find our podcast. If you'd like to check out a free support group, go to eatingrecovery.com/support-groups or pathlightbh.com/support-groups. Mental Note is produced and hosted by me, Ellie Pike, and directed and edited by Sam Pike. Till next time.

Presented by

Ellie Pike, MA, LPC

Ellie Pike is the Sr. Manager of Alumni/Family/Community Outreach at ERC & Pathlight Behavioral Health Centers. Over the years, she creatively combined her passions for clinical work with…

Presented by

Kaylee Kron, LMSW

Kaylee earned her Master of Social Work degree through Boise State University as well as a Master of Strategic Marketing Degree through Bellevue University. Kaylee brings 10 years of social work…